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> Where Is This Path . . .
Immortality
post Dec 11 2007, 09:59 PM
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There is only one main question: Do you think the way to obtain wisdom (knowledge about the functioning of the world: mostly about the position of the humans) leads through suffering (psychical and/or physical)?
The easiest and quickiest transition perhaps as when we are in suffering we have already the base, the ground (as the state thanks to which we receive the access to congnition)...

There are two reasons for the opinions to be formed - whether to have them derived from experiences or/and personal pondering, both matter . . .


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Modi
post Dec 27 2007, 10:27 AM
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Tracking wisdom causes a lot of suffering psychical that is for sure, but physical I think it's possible too.
Why? and from what bases is my opinion?
Saying it's from personal experience, would be arrogant and rude, so a proper description would be pondering, so everything I say would be in theory.
Assuming that those who look for good books everywhere, observes people actions and deals with them calmly, have patience with what he faces, willing to do whatever it takes and ambitious and bold, are the one's who wishes to obtain wisdom, then psychical suffering is quite certain.
1-Books are quite important, for me books from the past are preferable from the current ones, because many are already translated so they are quite reachable, and old books, the best of them is quite known, and to me writer's from the past had a special way of writing that appeals me especially Arabic which I like the most.(of the books I deem important in one's quest of wisdom is "The Prince" since it bring a debatable view on the duties of a leader, and another one is "Kalila wa Demna" that is how it is pronounced in Arabic and I don't know if this book is translated to English or not. Of course there are other books, but I don't know about them yet, navels could be useful too though.)
2-To observe people means to constantly think of reasons and causes that is not according to one's reason but to the people whom are observed, such process needs knowledge in the observed culture and tradition. When this process ends, comes his own judgment, his search whether this is wrong or right( Note it's not according to his beliefs, culture or tradition, but to according to the reality of life which will make him quite a lonesome man)
3- Patience is a soar experience, the number of people one must encounter to fulfill this wish is quit big, and they are not as sane as one wishes them to be, so no patience no learning, besides those people are the ones who will act naturally most of the time, they are essential in such a quest.
4-Willing to do whatever it takes: you see such a quet won't be what were other people expectations about what you will become, and the may see it stupid since it' hard and someone close to you may describe you as arrogant and unrealistic while others will try to stop you so that you accomplish their wishes(especially family), what to with them ? it's quite a dilemmas I believe, your wishes or theirs? your satisfaction or theirs? they are all important to you and so are your goals.
5- Ambitious and bold, this is for the person to solve the dilemmas, without strong ambition one will not be willing enough to dispose of all of them, without boldness one will not be able to take all the loss, sadness and grief he may feel and lock them in his mind and not his heart.

Considering everything I mentioned psychical suffering is certain, and since one will most certainly be forced to travel at some point, if money is not available then physical suffering is quite possible.

I apologize for any mistake in any f the above, of course this is not everything about wisdom, about it is the thoughts that visited my mind.


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Immortality
post Dec 28 2007, 01:39 PM
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I haven't read descriptions yet all the points are united by the same reason.
What about gifts and these which are simultaneously the rewards?


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Modi
post Dec 31 2007, 08:53 PM
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If one is to follow wisdom, is because of a question, a wish for an answer, that answer is your present.
But let's consider what you will go through just to achieve wisdom, do you think that a problem you face will be hard to solve? Let's try another question: do you think that there is something that will make you unsatisfied, that will cancel your feeling of contemt?
The answer is nothing, there is nothing that may cancel those feelings, no problem will make you confused, nothing to cancel your achievment.
It's not that you will not be sad after a loss, but it will not control you. It's not that you will not face any problem, it's just they will seem normal not a dellima.And the list goes on.
Isn't that in itself a present, isn't that something worth to seek
What about the people around you, you ask? Amusingly, your acievment may seem nothing but arrogance to them, though that's just a possibility and they may see it quite fascinating and wish to learn from your experiences.
Teachers; have you ever thought about how many types of people they encounter, those pupils will resemble what people think of you try teaching and you will discover interesting things. and as they say "Teaching is to learn".
But mainly the answer of your question is your present. That's only my view, it holds no real significace.


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Immortality
post Jan 4 2008, 09:12 PM
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One doesn't look for wisdom if they try to find it and relies on, in somebody else's creations
(whether it would be behaviour, written or verbal words etc. - everything what comes from another human).
All what they can achieve is gaining a piece of information which, in the best case, can become the source in which they find inspiration to develop it to the further knowledge by themselves.
The fact that they nip off some knowledge out of somebody's wisdom doesn't make them possess the wisdom.
How much one will gain depends on how many truths one is ready for...
And humans aren't necessarily the most objective themselves when it comes to judging own propensity to cognition, in contradiction to common opinion (figures...)
They can limit themselves by sheer certainty that they are in power to get to the spring of wisdom.
People need to have some foundation in order to analyse and draw conslusion, and in such cases they sometimes don't see that these are what blocks them and disable going deeper.
And this is the side which the first part of my question aims at (yet it is connected with both-in the matter of misunderstood concept of the said "reward" which I meant and which let's not forget is at same time a gift).
It happens that someone is endowed with a gift, sharing which becomes their mission.
This is the point where stop would rather bear options to make answer more clear than impose the wrong character to the question.

On a final note here is this matter, how come the achievement itself can be perceived as an act of arrogance?
These are not our goals which make us arrogant but the attitude we hold towards it.


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Modi
post Jan 11 2008, 02:26 PM
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It's true relying on someone elses creations, doesn't leas to the desired wisdom.
To gain wisdom knowledge of the past is required, since wisdom should lead to a behaviour that fits at all times(past, present and future).
When we learn about someone else's creation, we don't necessarily take as the truth or the best way, we have the power to judge and know whether this idea needs improvement to fit more, or it needs total change .
When we know about actions in the past, we have the oppurtunity to know the consequences, thus we have a better bases to judge whether this behaviour is wrong or right.
QUOTE
People need to have some foundation in order to analyse and draw conslusion, and in such cases they sometimes don't see that these are what blocks them and disable going deeper.

Do you mean that the existence of a foundation is what blocks from going deeper? I believe that the existence of a foundations leads one to go deepe, since they will know whether they went deeper under the foundation or went higher above it or explored it and expanded th knoeldge they have aboutit.

An achievment like achieving wisdom, leads to a change in behaviour and going against what is common in a certain community, thus this society will think that you are better than them not to follow their lead and if one proved how this behaviour is wrong, then one from this community wil just say "Everyone does it, what makes you special not to do it even f it is wrong in your view" see they will not care about the prove they refuse to understand. But this is not the case with everyone, only a few of the community.


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Immortality
post Jan 11 2008, 08:05 PM
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When you receive wisdom you receive the information that is beyond time.
You may learn throughout your whole life and never discover nothing else but knowledge.
Wisdom isn't composed only of knowledge.
The birth of wisdom isn't conditioned on the reason and the results - the basic rulling of this world by which we gain information about its "working".
The rulling which also you included as one of your arguments.
QUOTE(modi @ Jan 11 2008, 03:26 PM) *
Do you mean that the existence of a foundation is what blocks from going deeper? I believe that the existence of a foundations leads one to go deepe, since they will know whether they went deeper under the foundation or went higher above it or explored it and expanded th knoeldge they have aboutit.

The achievement of the foundation makes one become certain in what they are doing (note for Modi: the reference to the layers).
Each foundation offers a particular attitude which conditions the vision of the world and then accordingly
- a particular behaviour and the way of thinking.
Each also, entails feelings.
Certainty assures peace and partially in this respect it becomes the attractive destination of one of everyone's aims. Answer to yourself what feelings could you associate with this state.
Not existence is needed for one to recognise in the situation, but just realisation.
The moment one frees oneself from pleasant arms of stability and safety (of the foundation/layer, according to which one used to "function": think, talk, behave), they don't get rid of the realisation of what is happening.
In order for one to notice other possibilities, it isn't possible to remove the layer. The matter is to fight with its influence. One's foundation doesn't disappear as long as one doesn't change it by successful fight.
QUOTE(modi @ Jan 11 2008, 03:26 PM) *
An achievment like achieving wisdom, leads to a change in behaviour

"These are not our goals which make us arrogant but the attitude we hold towards it. "
Remember that it is the attitude that conditions behaviour (etc.), though it is a matter of taken attitude whether you will be given the possibility to discover, for instance wisdom, in particular (this last addition is due to the fact that wisdom doesn't have to come singularly but as the union of other highest states).
The person who receives wisdom, perceives the world how it truly is and notices its need to change in a more emphasised form, then also more necessary as well as urgent (the type of attitude which accompanies it on the layer). Therefore, while saving internal calm, one puts it into action.
A person who outstands from the crowd with their views is used to be considered as the odd one.
People learn to build fear into their everyday life, even though they feel certain. It turns into more like subconscious fear, the more of it, the more skeptical and narrow one becomes. Each moment when the aspect of looking into their own subconsciousness comes into sight, they reject it, thus coming back to their safe shelter. A shelter where they don't experience fear. Because they don't go outside.

Accussing the others, the ones who released themselves, who managed to fight with the limits of life imposed by weak people (all the so-called thruths), becomes their way of justification for their own fear to fight with. They don't want to take up the challenge and keeps convincing themselves that they are unable to win. In order to get rid of any threats like realisation that there exist possibilities for them to get out of the cage which they regard as "home", they need to get rid of anyone who reflects the state of internal freedom.
Many build their confidence on groups.
The fact that they are amongst people who expose similar views make them believe even more that it has to be truth. The reason for elimination the one thinking differently becomes the more so justified and necessary.
Yet, the accussed person isn't bothered because of the truth that has grown inside of them.
I hope this point satisfies you and is fully understandable.

There are though other cases which can make one turn truly arrogant.
If self-certainty begins to overcome achieved wisdom in the aspect of behaviour, arrogance comes into being. (Leave alone all the other cases of one's arrogance as they don't refer to the matter at this point).
Wisdom stops being noticed even though it was the reason for one's arrogance to grow. It comes back to the shadows to such degree, when one would need to begin with the process to discover it all over again. At first they would need to get rid of all the blocking factors which come into being and made it hide/disappear.


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Modi
post Jan 28 2008, 07:37 PM
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QUOTE
Wisdom stops being noticed even though it was the reason for one's arrogance to grow. It comes back to the shadows to such degree, when one would need to begin with the process to discover it all over again. At first they would need to get rid of all the blocking factors which come into being and made it hide/disappear.

What about the person himself does he lose his wisdom with the flow of time, if he kept this behaviour, whether he is aware of it or not?


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Immortality
post Jan 29 2008, 09:14 PM
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Arrogance is a strong state, while wisdom needs delicacy in approach (in fact, they are connected with each other mutually. One conditions or is a part of another). Such hard states like arrogance has a tendency of being in front all the time. They cover "abilities" which one managed to sense within self and become sensitized to. Covering doesn't mean destroying, however they become so inferior (under the push from strong states making one die-hard one begins to feel, behave even think the way they dictate. And when even thoughts are subordinated to force which isn't control by human but controls him/her, then how the one is supposed to analyse, to question, to change. Own, private prison.) that they don't have a voice. In other words either one doesn't know them any more or still hears them but doesn't recognise them as good. It can be compared to a person engaged to talk with another standing right beside while someone else is calling from far away. The person may receive the signal of appearance of other source of sound however it doesn't reach the point of realisation to make one stop, think that indeed, there is something.
This is the example of extreme side of it, but there is also the case when one is aware of calling but isn't in control to help oneself, that is, to overcome the state they are in and bring back what they lost.
Side note (I apologise as people who are not familarised with the introduction of layers may have no clue what this girl is talking about): In this case, it would be the situation when one fall from their stable ground - the layer, to the lower one. Yet, the experience of higher achievements remains and thus one is placed more or less between the layers (depending whether influence of both layers is equal or differ) and is left with decision - which layer they want to make their ground. :The end of side note.
It is a very unpleasant and uncomfortable case, as one suffers as long as they don't find a way back. Especially when they don't know how they found themselves in the new situation (how they fall).
And now these three sentences which were supposed to be the only components of the answer at the beginning ...

Therefore, no, I absolutely not believe that wisdom as well as other "discoveries" are lost or destroyed. They exist as they do from the beginning of one's birth (whether earthy or not-though this "not" is a bit disputable as perhaps it shouldn't be called "birth") however in the course of time one can gain bigger possibility to become mature and reach the depths of a soul, in which it all reposes. Nevertheless, as you know my point of view at what happens when they stop being the leaders, you can even assign the description of "loss" if you see it more accurate.


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